Adventures in Odyssey Wiki:Town Hall/Cast Organization

Moving topic from talk pages on the issue of organizing episode cast characters alphabetically versus In order of importance. AIOrocks101 (talk) 09:04, 10 August 2018 (MDT)

Actually, there is a need to rearrange the cast. Episode casts used to be put in alphabetically. Now, we put them in, in order of importance in the episode (A better way to do it). For family episodes like Clutter, we go father, mother, oldest to youngest kid. I’ve been working on fixing old episodes slowly for a long time. AIOrocks101 (talk) 07:39, 10 August 2018 (MDT)

I had not heard this. Is this written down somewhere in a set of formatting guidelines? Over time as I've added new characters to the cast, I've been organizing alphabetically. Crnel (talk) 08:11, 10 August 2018 (MDT)

I don’t think it’s written anywhere, but it is how we do it now. I can probably find somewhere to put it. This way just makes it easier to read. For example, If I’m reading about an episode where Wooton is a main character, I expect to see him at the top, not the bottom. Thanks. AIOrocks101 (talk) 08:19, 10 August 2018 (MDT)

A codified sorting standard would definitely be helpful -- not only for users who are new (or, in my case, ignorant), but also because the idea of importance to the episode becomes rather subjective when it comes to supporting or minor characters (many of which have been recently added). Maybe this would be worth opening up for broader discussion on the Town Hall? Crnel (talk) 08:49, 10 August 2018 (MDT)

Sure, we can do that. AIOrocks101 (talk) 08:52, 10 August 2018 (MDT)

I can see how it might be useful to have characters listed in order of importance, but I’m with Crnel in that it would be very subjective and we might be forever rearranging characters based on how important we view them. Here’s three options I’d propose: 1) Leave the characters in alphabetical order (easiest and least subjective way), 2) Put the characters in order of appearance (less subjective, more likely to be key characters appearing first, but would require to carefully listen to every episode again), or 3) Put the characters in order of all-time number of appearances. For example, Whit would always appear at the top of the list since he’s been in the most episodes. One-time characters would be listed alphabetically at the end of the list. What do you all think? Harlow (talk) 09:47, 10 August 2018 (MDT)

Personally, I like the idea of cast in order of appearance. That was the way I structured the 30th Birthday Live Show. Or, we can go by order of importance (see here). For episodes like the Live Show and B-TV: Revenge, since there are so many characters I think a chronological list would be best. For Clutter, since there aren't many characters (thus they can all be seen at the same time without scrolling), order-of-importance is fine.

Is there an easy way to rearrange the cast list? Scientific Guy (talk / AIOC Episode Timeline) 12:12, 10 August 2018 (MDT)

"it would be very subjective and we might be forever rearranging characters based on how important we view them." - I don't organize the characters based on how important I personally view them or how much I love them. I love Jimmy, for example, but I'm not going to put Jimmy at the top of the list of an episode that he has one line in, just because I love Jimmy and that's the way its going to be. I will admit that we can't be completely objective with this, however, we can do our very best. I don't have a cheat sheet that says "In cases "XYZ", Jared goes in number 5." I just go in and figure out what works best based on the episode. The way I do it is I figure out who the top three characters are based on who the episode is about. I change those at the top, then I put the generic characters at the bottom (And/Or, the characters who may have a big role in the series, but only have a line or two in this particular episode). The order of generic characters isn't that important. Then, I figure out the middle, which is the hardest part, and does require discretion, but I make it work. If I had a list of how many lines each character has in each episode, I would use it, but I don't so I make due with what I have. 1) This makes it confusing to read, and hard to find a certain character, also I don't want, for example, "Construction Worker #3" at the top, when, as a generic character with just one line in "Episode X" he should be at the bottom. Remember, that's just a random person I made up for that example. 2) Difficult, don't want to listen to each episode to just look for that. Also, "Construction Worker #3" could still claim top spot, when he doesn't deserve it. Connie is the star of "Episode X", it says it right in the (imaginary) summary. She should be Number One. 3)This isn't good because even though Whit is the main character in the series, he shouldn't get top spot in "Episode X", because he only has two lines.

"Personally, I like the idea of cast in order of appearance. That was the way I structured the 30th Birthday Live Show. Or, we can go by order of importance (see here)." For the live show or B-TV, I like to start with our main characters, Whit, Connie, Eugene, etc.. at the top and group other characters played by the same actor under their main character, and work your way from there. This is how I like to do normal episodes as well. Its much more organized and easier to read. See B-TV: To Tell the Truth. Once you get to Kari Wahlgren and Phil Lollar at the bottom, their order isn't a big deal. I admit I might want to move Centurion under them since that's the only character Bob Smithouser plays. When I say order of importance, I don't mean "Who are the most important characters in the series?" What I mean is "Who are the main characters in this episode? Who are the supporting characters? Who just has a few lines?" Like that. I don't think there is a way to rearrange the cast list without going in and doing it manually, which I don't mind doing. You can't make a bot for it, since it will be different each episode. I'm sorry I didn't explain this better before. AIOrocks101 (talk) 13:26, 10 August 2018 (MDT)

I think we need an objective way to sort the characters. There are so many episodes with multiple story arcs where “main characters” are hard to judge. My vote is either alphabetical or chronological. Alphabetical is easier than chronological, because you don’t have to listen the episode to figure it out. If we went with chronological, we can always click the headings to sort alphabetically. Harlow (talk) 14:51, 10 August 2018 (MDT)

Since alphabetic sorting is already a function built into the Cast template, and since, as AIORocks points out, random minor characters may end up being placed high into the list when sorted alphabetically by default, a chronological sorting might be the best option. This may also inadvertently satisfy the desire to place the most prominent characters first, since the major characters in the episode tend to be heard in the first scene. Crnel (talk) 20:37, 10 August 2018 (MDT)

Order of importance is too subjective. And the father-mother-oldest to youngest kid doesn't work with families like the Washingtons where it's only mentioned once off-handed what birth order the kids are in. You shouldn't have to know the entire history of the show to add a character. I've been putting them in chronological since they can be sorted alphabetically anyway. I mean I'm sure there are times I heard a character who wasn't listed and stuck them in the bottom by accident but it wasn't intentional. I'm all for a codified cast/character list but it needs to be something completely objective. Order of appearance to me makes the most sense because if you are looking for who played the part of a character with a couple of throwaway lines that may be the only way you could find them if it's a show like a BTV with a lot of characters. If y'all really want to designate one line or one time characters within the structure then we need to come up with some sort of symbol to be next to the character's name. EDIT: Maybe we could have like two sets of symbols - one for the subjective importance we judge the character to have within the episode and one for their importance to the series. Like concentric circles - characters in the smallest, most inner circle are the most important - Whit, Connie, Eugene, etc. Middle circle are important characters but not The Main - Courtney, Tasha Forbes, Leonard Meltsner, and the outermost circle is characters of minor importance or who only have a few lines. I mean it would be a lot of work but no more than rearranging every cast/character infobox. Rachel Maxwell (talk) 08:47, 13 August 2018 (MDT)

I would be very happy to create a sample template or do some revisions to the existing one. Could we list some more example episodes that I could work with? So far, we have Clutter, the 30th Birthday Live Show, B-TV: Revenge, and B-TV: To Tell the Truth.

File:Two-tier Cast.jpg

Edit: Here's a start! Scientific Guy (talk / AIOC Episode Timeline) 16:07, 15 August 2018 (MDT)

I’m actually going to make some guidelines tonight. Maybe I can add that. AIOrocks101 (talk) 18:49, 15 August 2018 (MDT)

Thank you everyone for your ideas and input. You wanted a page explaining the rules for the cast lists, and now we have one. Please see Help:Episode Cast. It can be found on the Manual of Style page. I know some of you will probably say these methods are too complicated. I understand, since you're not used to it. After you do it several times, and become more familiar with it, it will get easier. With these methods that you may think are "too complicated", we can create cast lists that will be easier to read for the viewer. Remember, it's always more important to use methods (for anything on the wiki) that will be easy to read, not necessarily super easy to edit. I will update B-TV: To Tell the Truth to reflect these new rules, in order to use it as an example, when I get a chance. Thanks guys. AIOrocks101 (talk) 00:41, 16 August 2018 (MDT)

AIOrocks101, you’ve put lots of work into this and I really appreciate your effort! One question: Is this final, or is there room for discussion? The reason I ask is that after rereading our comment chain about this, almost everyone opted for a chronological approach to organizing the cast, and it looks like you went with your original idea instead of considering everyone else’s opinions. As an admin, you’re entitled to make changes to how this page operates, and I’m ok with that. However my concern is that the changes you’ve made do not reflect what the majority (on this conversation at least) asked for. Looking through the names on the comment feed I see that those who commented are the most active editors we have. By changing the rules against the consensus of the team, you run the risk of losing some of our best volunteer editors. While the plan you’ve laid out is well-thought-out and elaborate, many of us are full-time students and young professionals, editing pages as our free time permits, and we don’t have the time to follow an elaborate process, but since we love odyssey, we want to have the joy of listening and adding to the wiki as our schedules permit. I’d encourage you and the rest of the admin to reread the comments and take the majority consensus into consideration. Perhaps some sort of official vote, or compromise, would be in order. Harlow (talk) 10:28, 16 August 2018 (MDT)

AIOrocks, do you think what I tried is a good idea? It satisfies the need to separate major and minor characters and keeps them in chronological order. And with the "Crazy Talented Actor" section, couldn't one merely click the sort arrows to group characters by actor? Scientific Guy (talk / AIOC Episode Timeline) 12:02, 16 August 2018 (MDT)

Harlow, thank you for your input. I want you to know that I did reread everyone's ideas and consider them, and put them in here and there, such as the Ensemble Method. Ill probably revise it a bit later, I can't stop you from giving more suggestions, but I dont want to make a lot of big changes. I would hope that no one decides to leave over this. I understand that everyone, including me, just does this when we have time, and thats fine, i didnt do much the last two years for that very reason. I don’t want to do an official count numbers vote, because while I believe getting everyone’s feedback is important, ultimately the admins need to make the final decision. I know change is hard, but we can’t ever please everybody, there have been decisions made on here by Scientific Guy, and others that I didn’t necessarily agree with, but I let Sci do his thing because I understood his view on ways to improve the wiki. He has contributed much and well to the wiki, and I thank him for that, but I feel like I haven’t really had a big thing that I’ve done, just because of time. I can discuss with him, but I’m not going to just throw the whole thing out. Sci, I don’t like separating the characters into different boxes, it looks bad. It’s too much segregation. Also, you can’t click the arrows to sort completely by actor, and I want to see that by default. AIOrocks101 (talk) 12:10, 16 August 2018 (MDT)

What big changes do you mean? I don't believe there was a written precedent in place, only what you had envisioned. How is your method better than ours? Scientific Guy (talk / AIOC Episode Timeline) 12:18, 16 August 2018 (MDT)

As somebody who's been here as long as most (all?) of you off and on, I think it's safe for me to say the wiki can handle complicated edits as long as they make for a better experience for the user. The mentioned characters template made for more work but personally I think it's brilliant - absolutely brilliant. I just don't see how this ordering system is significantly better for the user - the chronological system is much more intuitive when you're reading through the cast/characters list. I'm not opposed to it being more work for the editors really, though I think there will be problems with that. My issue is that I think doing it that way doesn't add any value for the typical user. I don't mind having indicators for major/minor characters, I think that's a great idea. But I don't think sorting them that way makes any sense at all since most users probably won't even realize that's what's going on. Personally I'm not really a fan of splitting the boxes into major/minor characters especially since "minor" characters can become major ones as the series progresses, which means going back and re-editing episodes just to change something that is always going to be pretty subjective. Sorting characters by number of appearances (as you suggest in the Ensemble section) is the same way - you want em sorted by the number of appearances at the time of that airing or as of whatever their present count is? Why bother grouping characters played by the same actor together when we can already sort them alphabetically, which will put all roles played by an actor together? I just don't think there's enough of a benefit to this new system to justify making changes to over 800 episodes. Rachel Maxwell (talk) 14:53, 16 August 2018 (MDT)

Ok. I'm gonna try to break all this down and explain it as best I can.

1. How is this system better for the user? Methods like chronological or alphabetical can appear (seemingly) random to the untrained eye. I don't really know how many people read the cast list while they are listening to the episode, but for new episodes, I don't, for fear of spoilers. If you aren't reading the list while you listen, chronological won't be effective and you (probably) won't remember what order people were in, especially if you haven't heard the episode before. This can apply for old episodes as well, because any episode can be new to somebody. Maybe a lot of you can remember the basic chronological order after the fact, and that's great, but we have to remember the we admins, and all of the other editors who love helping on here, are not the average fan. We want the average fan, not matter how much they know about "AIO", to be able to find and read what they are looking for quickly and easily. When I first started on here, over 6 years ago, when I would look at cast lists, I expected to see the "stars" of the episode (The people that it's mainly about, who are probably mentioned in the summary) at the top. What I found was, what looked to me, like a random order with people just thrown in wherever. It was a while before I realized most of the lists were in alphabetical order. We don't want visitors to have to take the time to figure that out, and change how they approach it. I would expect, and I would think that the "Average Joe" listener would expect to see the main characters at the top, all the way through to cameos at the bottom, the same way you see any movie or TV show credits organized. You watch an Indiana Jones movie, who is the first cast member you see listed ? Harrison Ford. Why? Because he's the star. And "John Smith" who has two lines in a 30 second scene is way at the bottom. Why? Because the average watcher/listener doesn't care about "John Smith" nearly as much as he does Harrison Ford or Will Ryan. Good Ol' "John" and his character are still there to view, and he gets his credit, but he's not up in your face in front of the people that most listeners are going to really care about. No matter what we do on the Wiki, we need to always think (Even if it's harder for us) "What will this look like to the average listener, who maybe knows almost nothing about "AIO" or the Wiki? Is it easy for them to read and understand?" If not, it should be changed. We editors should all think of ourselves as "AIO" "interpreters". Because we probably know a lot more facts than most, we need to look at it from their viewpoint, and write it in an easy to understand "language", that most people (Who know English) should be able to read without much problem. Remember, people (who don't edit) get on here because they have questions about the show. They should be able to find the answers they seek quickly and easily.

2. In regards to major and minor characters, again, I believe the average listener, who is unfamiliar with the Wiki, would expect the star of the episode to be at the top. I think they would know that that is what is happening. I believe they would be more likely to be confused and not realize what's going on with the chronological or alphabetical methods. If someone who doesn't know much about the show or the wiki listens to an episode with Robyn Jacobs as the main character (Such as You Go to School Where? or But, You Promised), and wants to find her in the list so they can read more about her, they will be frustrated if they have to scroll through a bunch of other characters, who they may be unfamiliar with, just to find the star of the episode, who they were expecting to be at the top. The Wiki needs to be as user friendly as possible, otherwise, what's the point? While I don't believe Sci's box method is best, with both that & my method (Maybe I could have explained it a little better), it's major and minor characters in the EPISODE not the SERIES. Whit may be the main character in the series, but there are a good amount of episodes, where he plays a fairly minor role in the grand scheme of things. This is exactly what happens with the episode Clutter. If you refer back to Sci's example image above, you will see Whit is in the "Minor Characters" box with Red because their roles are both small and not as important as the rest of the actual Parker family, the stars of the episode. If you look at how I have it set up currently on that episodes page, you will see a similar thing, Whit and Red are at the bottom because their roles in this episode are minor compared to the rest of the cast. If a minor character in the series gains a larger role overall down the road, good for them, but it shouldn't really have a bearing on their placement in past or future cast lists because it's all about what their role was in that particular episode. There is no reason to go back and change it again, unless you are adding a needed character who wasn't there before. If we are talking Major and minor characters in the series, the wiki has a way for that. Category:Characters by number of appearances, and the pages within. I know we don't have lists of the number of lines for each character, or something like that, But, by putting our thinking caps on, we can make a list that's hopefully close to an official one, and looks more professional than something that can look random and disorderly. Please remember, no method is perfect.

3. Sorting characters by number of appearances, as in the Ensemble Guidelines: I would say sorting by a character's present count. I will admit trying to figure out what it was when an old episode came out would be too difficult. I certainly don't want to figure that out. But, please remember, as I stated in the Guidelines, that method should not be used a lot, only after a user has tried unsuccessfully to use the first one, the "Main Cast Method".

4.Why bother grouping characters played by the same actor together? I like, and I believe it's a very useful feature for the reader, to be able to easily see all characters played by a particular actor together. It makes them easy to find. Say someone is listening to an episode, they hear a small one time character, they think "Is he played by Will Ryan?" They simply go to the cast list, see where all Will Ryan's characters are listed together, and they can find it and get their answer. While you can press the actor arrow buttons to sort everything alphabetically by actor, I believe it to be most convenient for the reader if it's already like that by default, and they can see it along with the rest of the main cast order. I will admit I made a mistake, thinking the arrows can't put all an actors characters together. I will admit I haven't used the arrows much. Maybe there are others who also don't really notice the arrows. Even so, I still think it would be better to have that in the regular cast list. It makes the lists look more orderly, and less messy.

And, in regards to going back and changing over 800 episodes, I am not going to say, and no one should say "Well, this is a very important project, so we need to have all these pages changed by this time next month". Of course not. No way. I think, If several of us work on it when we can (Which is all any of us can ever do) editing lists when you're listening to an episode, and you are able and have time to change it, great. I think we could have it all switched over in two years or less. No need to rush and kill ourselves. A lot of recent episodes are already formatted similar to this. I'm sorry that was so long, but I do want to help everybody understand my reasoning. I know you are frustrated, but, hopefully, you are starting to see and understand better where I am coming from. AIOrocks101 (talk) 21:25, 16 August 2018 (MDT)

It's late at night for me; I'll just throw this in here. The point of the cast list should be to tell who plays which character. The point of the plot is to tell who the star is. Scientific Guy (talk / AIOC Episode Timeline) 21:35, 16 August 2018 (MDT)

I just really think there's an easier solution. What if, instead of reordering all the cast/character boxes, we came up with an infobox that was sortable alphabetically, chronologically, and order of importance. Then we'd just have to back into old episodes and put in numbers to indicate their standings. Rachel Maxwell (talk) 07:02, 17 August 2018 (MDT)

No, think about it, that’s a lot more work. You would still have to go in to every episode, figure out and add now 2 numbers for every character, and you’re already changing the numbers, you might as well reorder them too, (I find it easier to reorder when changing numbers anyway) that wouldn’t add much work. And, you’re have to make another, more complicated template. Also, remember, most episode lists from the last several years in the recent albums, are already sorted close to what I outlined, and might just need a little tweaking here and there, you’d have a lot more pages to change doing what you just suggested. With what I outlined, you’d also be changing most episodes, but just one number for each character, and nothing beyond the episode pages themselves. That other way is all just too much work. AIOrocks101 (talk) 10:16, 17 August 2018 (MDT)

More work initially, maybe, but more information and more intuitive for the user. I thought we weren't deciding this based on the amount of work; it's not necessarily easier for the editors but it's easier to understand for the average user. Look I nerd out on AIO as much as anybody - I did a study one time on the ratio of female to male characters (spoiler: Margaret Faye was right). I'm all for more information, all for better organization. But I'm not for doing it in a way that isn't immediately obvious to the user - much less not obvious to those of us who know the show inside and out. If your method of organizing the characters doesn't make a lot of sense to people who have heard literally every episode then maybe it needs some tweaking. If you said 'we should have a way to organize the character list by order of importance as well as order of appearance (a standard crediting technique) or alphabetically (again, a standard crediting technique)' then I'd be completely behind that. I want the Wiki to be as accessible to AIO's casual fans as to those of us who dive ridiculously deep into theories and minutiae. I also want the amount of information to be interesting and usable to those of us who do enjoy all the data. To me the more information, the better organized, the better. Look, the standards for organization you've laid out have some real flaws, some of which we've already addressed - like what to do when it hasn't been really established which sibling is older. Or you have the father always listed first in family episodes - what if the father has a small role? By order of importance then shouldn't he be at least in the middle? Or do we leave him at the top because that's just the rule now? There's too much that's subjective for it to be a standard that we hold people to, and too much subjectivity for us to say a list of characters that has more than a couple of major ones (like most of the Blackgaard saga episodes) is "wrong". Personally I foresee edit wars with "this character was more important" "no THIS character was more important". And what happens in storytelling episodes like the Underground Railroad. Jack's not really a major character in there, he's just a listener. But he's vital to the telling of the story. And in Bible episodes, isn't Jesus always the most important character even when he has a "smaller" role than other characters like in Adventure in Bethany? Or in Hide and Seek when we hear the voice of God - who's gonna put God at the bottom because He only had a couple of lines? Rachel Maxwell (talk) 13:01, 17 August 2018 (MDT)

You're right, I did say that. We shouldn't decide based on the amount of work. I just didn't want to go too far with stuff to do, but since you feel so strongly about this, I think we can make it work. I think it's established that we have different opinions on what is obvious and what isn't, both to average and avid listeners. "we should have a way to organize the character list by order of importance as well as order of appearance (a standard crediting technique) or alphabetically (again, a standard crediting technique)" Ok, lets do this. If Scientific Guy can make a template for it, and everybody pitches in, fixing an episode when you have time (I wouldn't demand anything more, I know we all have lives), it should be a smooth transition. I would like the default method to be the "order of importance" (If you have an issue with that, please remember I'm giving a little, & giving you more of what you want, so meet me halfway please), and each method of organization should have a title at the top, when you change it, so that people will know what it is, if there is any doubt. "I want the Wiki to be as accessible to AIO's casual fans as to those of us who dive ridiculously deep into theories and minutiae. I also want the amount of information to be interesting and usable to those of us who do enjoy all the data. To me the more information, the better organized, the better." - I completely agree. I want it to be as useful and interesting to us huge fans as to the average listener. I just meant that I don't want to do anything that will be hard to use or understand to new or less experienced people. I apologize if I sounded like I was saying something different. Ok, I understand, please keep in mind, that every method brought up here has flaws, and nothing we do will ever be completely perfect. That's just how it is. "like what to do when it hasn't been really established which sibling is older." - Like I said before, we know that Marvin Washington is older than Tamika, that has been established in the show. We also know that Kelly is younger than both of them. Let's look at other families that we know. We know the order of the Parker kids. Whittaker? Check. Kendall? Check. We know the correct order for the Straussbergs, and the McKays. Oscar Peterson's family, and the Jacobs family we know. We know enough about the DeWhite and the Jefferson families. We know the orders for the Shepard family and the Horton family. For the Mulligan family, Tony and Brianna don't appear at all with the whole rest of them, so that's not a problem. For Janelle and Jessica, I don't remember if their ages are stated, but I believe we can tell that they are younger than Nick and Lisa. Since Janelle and Jessica are twins, and their age would be the same, Janelle can come first, going alphabetically. Since Hector's age is unknown, but we know he's younger than Lisa and Nick, he can go at the bottom, since he's only in one episode. Ok, that's most of the families. Did I miss anyone important? As you can see, we have enough information about most of the major families on the show to make it work. "Or you have the father always listed first in family episodes - what if the father has a small role? By order of importance then shouldn't he be at least in the middle? Or do we leave him at the top because that's just the rule now?" - I just thought it would be good to have the father listed first, just based on the biblical standard that the father should be the head in the household, even in modern times. For Grady, I know his dad's not around most of the time, so we list his mom first, not a problem. But, we can make an exception for episodes where Grady is obviously the bigger character compared to his mom and sister, and can be listed before. I mentioned that in what I wrote. For The Highest Stakes, we don't have to list Carson first (But please don't think I'm saying to list every character based on what their morals are, Of course not). We could probably List Grady and then Carson, since they are the main characters in that story, with the rest of the family following. If the father (Or another family member) has a smaller role, and that makes the list just not look right, then the list can be adjusted accordingly based on that episode and situation. For the family method, I believe it should be used for Ensemble episodes, where the story is more about the family as a whole, and not necessarily ones where a kid may have an obviously larger role. Examples of Family ensemble episodes would be Family Vacation, Our Best Vacation Ever, Treasures of the Heart, The Mystery at Tin Flat, Sunday Morning Scramble, Clutter, Un-Tech the Halls, etc. "too much subjectivity for us to say a list of characters that has more than a couple of major ones (like most of the Blackgaard saga episodes) is "wrong"" - This is what the Ensemble method is for. I'm fine with listing the characters based on their number of appearances in the show, for the episodes that do have long complicated casts. (Blackgaard, Novacom, B-TV, The Green Ring Conspiracy, The Ties That Bind, etc.) If we want to do that for those ones by default, without trying the "Main Character" method first, I'm fine with that. "Personally I foresee edit wars with "this character was more important" "no THIS character was more important"." - Yeah, I don't want that to happen, I think, if there is a disagreement like that, or if just one user can't decide between two (or more characters) which to put first, just sort those characters by their appearance count in the series. That would be fine. "And what happens in storytelling episodes like the Underground Railroad. Jack's not really a major character in there, he's just a listener. But he's vital to the telling of the story."- What I do for episodes like that is I list the main two or three characters in the story being told, then I list the people telling and listening to the story, then I list everyone else. So for the underground railroad, We would list Henry Ross, Caroline Ross, William Ross, Carl Ross, Jack Allen, (These two can be flipped if needed), then everyone else. See One More Name (I know the rest of that episode's list would need tweaking, but it works for what I'm talking about) for an example. "And in Bible episodes, isn't Jesus always the most important character even when he has a "smaller" role than other characters like in Adventure in Bethany? Or in Hide and Seek when we hear the voice of God - who's gonna put God at the bottom because He only had a couple of lines?" - Please don't destroy me for saying this, but while I do believe God is the most important "character" in all of our lives, I don't think God or Jesus needs to be placed at the top of the list of an episode where he is not the main character. I think He should be placed based on his heard role like the rest. If he's at the bottom, we can think of it as "Saving the best for last". Or another idea, we could do "Saving the best for last" for every episode with God or Jesus, and just always list him last. Now that I think about it, I like that way best. Just like some shows and movies will list the highest profile actor last. You brought up some good questions, thank you. Look, I know this is more complicated than you guys are used to, and it will take some time to get the hang of it, but I believe, in the long run, when its all done, it will look great. I would like to ask for everyone to do their best to respect each other on here. I will also do my best to respect everyone, and try to answer concerns as best I can. AIOrocks101 (talk) 23:57, 17 August 2018 (MDT)

(Getting hard to read in the right margin) I can certainly rig something up! Thank you for conceding to do a hybrid plan, AIOrocks. My idea is to add a button that says Relative Importance / Chronological and clicking on it changes the cast box. The sort feature (up/down arrows) for importance is based on alphabetical order and the sort for Chronological is first-last and last-first. I didn't think mentioned characters was a good idea in the first place, but it's been fantastic! (Thanks to Crnel...) Scientific Guy (talk / AIOC Episode Timeline) 17:17, 18 August 2018 (MDT)

Ok, I'm looking forward to seeing it! AIOrocks101 (talk) 18:14, 18 August 2018 (MDT)

YES YES YES!! How's this? User:Scientific Guy/Sandbox Scientific Guy (talk / AIOC Episode Timeline) 20:57, 18 August 2018 (MDT)

I think that looks really good, and has all the features everyone's been discussing. Thanks for your work on this, Scientific Guy! Harlow (talk) 22:36, 18 August 2018 (MDT)

Got the first prototype up for Crash Course in my sandbox. I had an idea that would make later rearranging of characters easier, which is just using {{{1}}} and {{{2}}} instead of {{{Character1}}} and {{{Actor1}}}. I can't get DPL to autogenerate the markup for me (using #expr with %NR% makes the wiki dummb); perhaps if someone else could? Then again, we can just stay with special parameters. Scientific Guy (talk / AIOC Episode Timeline) 19:49, 19 August 2018 (MDT)

Looks good so far, I don't know how to do that, if we can't figure it out, we can just keep the other way, though that would make it easier. AIOrocks101 (talk) 20:09, 19 August 2018 (MDT)

...Anyone wanna take a crash course in Lua? I have NEVER been able to understand the Module pages anyway. A user who knows Lua will be very helpful. Scientific Guy (talk / AIOC Episode Timeline) 20:13, 19 August 2018 (MDT)

I'm a fan of this box! AIORocks I think your responses to the specific issues I brought up were really well-thought out and I don't have a problem with any of them - really glad we are talking about all of this now as opposed to down the road when we've all done pages slightly differently. Sorry that I don't speak Lua :( Rachel Maxwell (talk) 12:21, 20 August 2018 (MDT)

Yessssssss... User:Scientific Guy/Sandbox and User:Scientific Guy/Sandbox2. Sandbox has the example for Crash Course with parameters: {{Hybrid Cast}}. Sandbox2 has the same thing without parameters: {{SimpleHybrid Cast}}. Feel free to edit Sandbox2 and see how the boxes change when you rearrange lines. No need to do any copying and pasting! (By the way, could you chime in on City Council, Rachel Maxwell?) Scientific Guy (talk / AIOC Episode Timeline) 18:36, 20 August 2018 (MDT)

Just to throw out my opinion as (I think) one of the most active users, I love this idea of the box. I don't speak Lua but if I can help please let me know ( I'm trying to find something important to do on the wiki) ConnieKendall fan  talk Proverbs 13:20He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm. (Guestbook) 23:44, 20 August 2018 (MDT)

P.S.; If you're looking for courses maybe this [1] will help.ConnieKendall fan  talk Proverbs 13:20He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm. (Guestbook) 23:52, 20 August 2018 (MDT)

Done Unless anyone can find a bug, {{Hybrid Cast}} is my final template. Hybrid Cast doesn't use named parameters but {{Hybrid Cast/named}} does. {{SimpleHybrid Cast}} is a redirect. Any questions? Scientific Guy (talk / AIOC Episode Timeline) 19:56, 23 August 2018 (MDT)

Could everyone chime in on whether you all think this'll work? I'm fixing a bug with showing character names, but once I fix that, could you take a look and give me your opinions? Scientific Guy (talk / AIOC Episode Timeline) 17:49, 30 August 2018 (MDT)

I really like the new template, and I'm finding the significant factor to be simpler than I assumed it would be for most episodes. Keeping track of appearance order and significance takes active listening, but that's a good thing. One problem: B-TV and similar episodes. Deciding significance for such an episode is difficult, so it might be simpler just to put the reoccurring characters at the top in order of significance, then the other characters in order of appearance, or alphabetically, or something. But I really think we should move forward with the new template! Harlow (talk) 13:03, 31 August 2018 (MDT)

Done! I don't think there are any problems with Hybrid Cast. It's ready to go! Scientific Guy (talk / AIOC Episode Timeline) 07:31, 21 October 2018 (MDT)